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Reviews for Breaking Point

whitehound 2005.09.28 - 03:29AM 1: Breaking Point Signed
By "slightly autistic" I mean what is technically called "high-functioning autism" - people who are near-normal enough to function in society but who have obvious serious wiring faults - inability to understand any emotional complexity; difficulty envisioning the thoughts of others; bizxarre fetishes; obsessive list-making and other odd behaviour etc. but these things are not always immediately obvious until you get to know someone well. I think often of the woman who was married to a guy (later diagnosed with Asperger's) for years without realizing that he was anything more than a bit unemotional. Then she asked him to fit a new carpet, which should have involved cutting little slots for the radiator pipes, and instead he cut the entire carpet into little tiny pieces and then put them back like a jigsaw puzzle and it was only then that she realized how abnormal his thinking really was.

It does sound, however, as though the criterai for diagnosing autism in the UK are looser than they are in Australia, since I spend a lot of time playing cards with a guy who (by our standards) has Asperger's, andf he has no difficulties making eye-contact although he has a host of other behavioural, emotional and intellectual oddities.

I repeat, I have never to my knowledge met anyone who had a truly single-focus intellect who did not also have - by British standards of diagnosis - other behavioural oddities (obsessive list-making; inability to process the emotions of others etc.) which made one suspect Asperger's.

Author's Response: And I have never met anyone, single-focus or otherwise, who doesn't have behavioural abnormalities. Some autists can give eye-contact - mostly as something they learned, rather than something that comes naturally as it does to the rest of us - but most avoid it or are unable. To return to canon instead of arguing over definitions of autism, Snape does not have a single-focus intellect but we don't know how broad or limited his intellect is. There are different types of intelligence, eg logical, mathematical, linguistic, propriocentric, musical, social, emotional, etc. Only some are related to academic excellence. Most people have their abilities concentrated in two or three areas, not across the board. Thus, for example, well-developed maths-logic and poorly-developed language-literature skills is a very common pattern of intelligence in engineers and physicists, while some literati are quite inapable of doing even simple sums. In the same way, Snape's brilliance at Potions and DADA does not prove that he is brilliant in any other subject.


whitehound 2005.09.27 - 06:44PM 1: Breaking Point Signed
Most of the people I know who have sky-high intelligence (including myself) are good at nearly everything: I don't think I've ever met anybody who had single-focus high intelligence unless, indeed, they were odd in ways which suggested they might be very slightly autistic.

Three hints. One is the bucking broom incident. One is Luoin saying Snmape envied James' skill at Quidditch (although Luopin isn't a very reliable source). One is the refereeing incident.

After Harry has nearly accidentally knocked Snape off his broom 50ft up, Snape lands and Harry thinks he sees him spit with disgust against him, Harry. But this is because Harry at that point thinks he has just thwarted Snape's attempt to kill him - whereas Snape has been trying to save him. Even for Snape, spitting about Harry would seem a bit extreme. As he is also described as coming off that broom sheet-white, I assume JK means us to assume that he is actually retching and spitting up bile - and that he has no head for heights. And nobody who suffered from vertigo could be very good on a broom!

Author's Response: I have met non-autistic people with single-focus intelligence and I wish you'd stop loosely throwing around words like autism as if they mean something they don't. Autism, a catch-all term for the full range of PDD (Pervasive Developmental Disorders), has no recognised universal diagnosis but it is quite distinct from mere geekiness. Although there are indications of a genetic basis in some cases, the syndrome encompasses various unrelated disorders that have developmental delays, play deficits, language deficits and social deficits in common. True autism requires noticeable deficits in at least 5 out of 9 areas under one common diagnostic tool. There may be both macro and micro differences in the brains of autists, for example, their language use stems from a different (more primitive) area of the brain and their intelligence is skewed towards examining unrelated details rather than trying to form them into a related whole. Autistic babies do not have the automatic natural focus on faces and voices that is otherwise universal to humankind. Please don't make me go on for pages. If you run down a checklist of autism behaviours you may find individual items that describe yourself but that doesn't mean you are autistic, any more than skipping meals would define you as anorexic. For a definition of autism to be valid, the autistic behaviours must predominate. Being an eccentric doesn't make someone "slightly autistic". Let's examine your "three hints": 1) The bucking broom could also have resulted from a hex, similar to the incident in Harry's first Quidditch match; 2) Quidditch requires more skills than just being able to fly, for instance, speed, precision, making quick turns, strategic play, catching/throwing/beating, etc, and therefore Lupin's comment (even if we accept it as reliable) doesn't necessarily refer to Snape's flying skills); 3) I've always interpreted the spitting incident as a hint of Snape's plebeian origins (for which reason, his background didn't surprise me when JK finally revealed it). True, Snape is "white-faced and tight-lipped" as he lands, but I assumed that he had been startled/frightened by Harry's speeding just past him from behind, "missing him by inches", moments earlier. That would be enough in itself to spook most people, and Snape's experiences as a spy and a fighter would make him jumpier than most.


whitehound 2005.09.27 - 06:06AM 1: Breaking Point Signed
I really don't see any reason to suppose he was anything other than a generally good student, even though his performance might have been affected by stress at times.

We're shown that he was brilliant at potions - one of the best students *ever* - and that his work was both original and inventive, not just rote-learning. It's most unusual for that sort of brilliance to be concentrated on only one subject unless the person is autistic - and although Snape is socially inept he's far too emotional, and far too good at understanding (and mainipulating) the emotions of others for that to be the case.

We're shown that he wrote reams for the DADA exam, which is not the action of a dyslexic (though he might well have been a bit dyspraxic - there are at least three hints that he was lousy on a broom). We're told that he arrived at age 11 knowing more hexes than the 7th years, and shown him inventing more - again, in DADA he was also both learned and original.

Brilliance at potions implies at least extreme competence at Herbology, since they are so closely related - and brilliance at DADA implies at least reasonable skill with Transfiguration. Of course he might have been lousy at Arithmancy, Divination, Runes - but nobody can be good at *everything.* I really think we've been shown enough in canon to demosntrate that he was a very good student.

None of which detracts from your idea that he might have prefered joining the Marauders to being hounded by them - since intelligence isn't valued in British schools. Getting top marks would just make him think "I'm a geek - nobody will ever want to know me."

Author's Response: People are far too quick to label others autistic. As the mother of three autistic kidults (plus 3 non-autists), I have a fairly good idea of the difference. It's not at all unusual for non-autistic intelligence to be concentrated in one or two subjects and there are many more types of learning disability than dyslexia and dyspraxia. Some are subtle and not easily diagnosed unless you're specifically looking. Three hints? There's that Occlumency memory where a girl is laughing as his broom bucks - but it might have been hexed like harry's was in Book 1. What are the others? We saw that he can ride well enough to referee a Quidditch game. (Although the game was over very quickly surely he wouldn't have been reffing if he thought he was likely to make a fool of himself.) Potions and herbology might be closely related but that doesn't seem to help Neville. Snape's good understanding of plant matter does not in any way imply a facility with plant care and cultivation. DADA and Tansfiguration are not especially closely related. All we KNOW, as opposed to surmise, is that he's excellent at Potions and DADA and presumably Charms. I suspect he's good at Arithmancy and Runes as he has a good grasp of logic and a retentive memory.


whitehound 2005.09.27 - 02:44AM 1: Breaking Point Signed
He might well have performed below his potential because he was under so much stress (a brilliantly clever friend of mine actually ended up in remedial education because he was being abused), but he can hardly have done *badly*, or he wouldn't have been made a schoolmaster at only 21 or 22 (depending on which possible birth-date you take). And it's clear from the way he talks about them that Severus and Lily were probably the two best potions students Sluggy ever taught - with the smart money on Severus, since Sluggy's measure of how well Harry does in his first lesson with him is "Even Severus...." And that *is* canon, because we've no reason to think that Sluggy would be biased in favour of someone from such a poor, un-influential background.

And if he'd done badly, and had some obvious problem such as dyslexia, he would have gotten more support from the teachers - whereas clever students are just assumed to be able to look after themselves.

Author's Response: He doesn't have to be good at everything to teach Potions, only at that subject - and there's no doubt that he's brilliant at Potions. (We also know he's good at DADA and presumably Charms but we don't know whether his Practical DADA OWL was badly affected by the underpants incident which preceded it if the exam schedule was the same as in Harry's year.) Learning disabilities are often not obvious - and even something as well known as dyslexia was not always identified back then. We haven't seen any remedial programs at Hogwarts, nor any indication that they are aware of, or sympathetic to, learning disabilities. Ron got no aid or sympathy in second year, when his wand kept misfiring and he had difficulty with the simplest spells. As far as we know, no one even asked him what the trouble was. Maybe we wouldn't have heard about Neville, Crabbe or Goyle getting remedial classes in their first five years even if they did. The only canon evidence on the subject is that 1) Snape calls the Occlumency lessons "Remedial Potions"; 2) Draco laughs at Harry because "Snape doesn't give remedial lessons to anyone"; 3) Snape does give Crabbe and Goyle Remedial DADA after they fail their OWLs.


whitehound 2005.09.26 - 06:33PM 1: Breaking Point Signed
I think we're meant to understand that Snape was the sort of clever, quirky, socially awkward kid who, if born a little later and pure Muggle, would have been a computer hacker....

It's not a matter of arguing with canon. We don't actually *see* James doing very well academically: we're only *told* that he did, by two biased sources one of whom has been proven to be inaccurate on the subject of the Marauders. James must have done tolerably well - I don't suppose McGonagall would have made that up out of whole cloth - but I very much doubt he was in Snape's league. He might have been one of the brightest in Gryffindor in his year - but really, you would expect that most of the top pupils would come from Ravenclaw.

Author's Response: As I said, Snape's genius may not have translated well to the classroom in most subjects and he isn't the sort to display all his inventions to the world. We can't even be sure he didn't have a learning disability that affected his academic success; that would not have prevented him from doing brilliant extra-curricular work.


Aragon 2005.09.26 - 04:13PM 1: Breaking Point Signed
Thanks for your answer! I agree with quite a few of your interpretations. I think too that he was an unhappy teenager, he might had have self confidence issues (but not regarding his brain prowess imo!) like most people have at one time or another during their adolescence. Although I'd like to mention that holding one's self "hunched" and "roundshouldered" is more likely simply the sign of a weak back - especially during growth spurts! I sure held myself like that in those years and the fact that most of my friends were quite a bit smaller was also contributing to this habit. And I'm not of the opinion that Potter and Black were stupid jocks at all: while I think their virtues somewhat exaggerated by some they sure were clever and good students. McGonagall was probably right : and the fact that they were in HER house meant she had more reason to sing their praises. When have we ever heard her extolling the acomplishments of non-Gryffindors?! I'm speculating sometimes that it was her (and ADs) obvious bias that spurred Snape into his Slytherin-favouritism when he started teaching - as a way to retaliate and balance what he experienced as a student. But my main point was: I simply can't see Severus to WANT to be friends with James, Sirius and sycophants. To be desperate for their approval as you very pointedly made clear, to even be happy with being one of Potter's worshippers! THAT'S what I can't relate to in regard to your Snape. Envious of their social status and wealth - yes. Annoyed by their preferential treatment - yes. Asking himself why they won't just leave him alone - yes. Wanting to be among the sheep following them adoringly? Never. Not Snape! That's Lupin - not Severus Snape.

Author's Response: I don't agree with your main point but that's because I don't believe Snape is really as self-sufficient as he pretends. He knocks back all attempts to get close bcause he doesn't trust people to mean it not because he likes solitude. He wanted that approval and recognition in his teens, just as he wanted that Order of Merlin in PoA, wanted it so much he'd have accepted what came with it (though maybe once he had it he'd have decided it wasn't worth it.) Also I've written James as having tremendous natural charm and magnetism. Part of our disagreement is that you just don't see James as attractive whereas I speculate that he was so attractive that even Severus felt it. That's why he muses that everyone fell for it, even Lily in the end, despite her dislike of James's baser side. Both interpretations, yours and mine, are canon-compatible. So are many others. JK has never shown us the inner man behind the masks and I doubt she ever will.

marina 2005.09.26 - 10:09AM 1: Breaking Point Signed
Definately very, very good! Excellent! Can we have a post HBP ficlet soon?

Author's Response: I have one up at Ashwinder (and at ffnet), Dumbledore's Man", which has just a touch of SSHG. I'm also planning one, an SSHG mentor fic, that will start during HBP. Unless I adapt Breaking Point to HBP though I probably won't post any at Occlumency.

whitehound 2005.09.26 - 05:08AM 1: Breaking Point Signed
But when has McGonagall ever acknowledged ability in a Slytherin (any more than Snape will acknowledge it in Hermione)? The thing is, I don't know where you're from or how old you are, but I am both British and Snape's exact contemporary (he would be either two months older than me, or ten months younger, almost to the day) and I can assure you that in that era it was *social death* at most British schools to be good at anything academic (still is, as far as I know). The fact that young Snape obviously had chronic low-self-esteem (and the adult one is over-compensating like crazy) in itself suggests he was one of the top students, and the fact that James was so popular suggests that he *wasn't*. At the least, if James was good at something other than sport his popularity would be despite that, not because of it. To be openly good at anything academic, especially in a boy, meant to be openly despized and hounded. [To be at the bottom was also bad - mediocrity is all.] It's a disgusting truth, but even teachers at British schools tend to dislike pupils who do too well. I was fortunate that at my school ability was valued by the teachers, if not by the pupils: but many British teachers, especially of that era, regarded bright pupils as just a nuisance and a drain on resources, and did their best to discourage them. My cousin was a teacher of that era and my mother has never forgotten overhearing her talking about how much she hated clever kids. It has to do with the culture of inverted snobbery which was predominant in British teacher-training colleges at the time - so that the reaction to a bright pupil tended to be "You think you're better than me, brat?" I doubt if Snape reacted with actual killing force - in the OWLs scene he seemed to be using Sectumsempra as delicately as a fencer and just gave James a flick with it. But being a kid from what looks like an abusive home, he might well have over-reacted spectacularly to some minor act of physical teasing - which would be regarded as Not Being a Good Sport and would again be social death. On the other hand, the nickname Snivellus suggests that his initial fault had been to cry when he was bullied, poor kid.

Author's Response: I'm Australian and a little older than you. I was born in 57. I believe you about the British schools. Back then we were still very colonialist, looking back to the "homeland" (although I have no English blood whatsoever. First generation Aussie, parents born in Egypt, grandparents in Jerusalem Safed Smyrna and Austria ...) so I remember it all very well. And I was a supernerd who spent my lunchtimes in the library. However that makes both of us noticeably older than JK. I wonder what her experiences were like and what she had in mind. I think it's probable that all the factors you mention combined to make him an outcast at school; over-reaction to "pranks", over-sensitivity to insult, over-achievement in lessons. Though I insist that you can't argue with canon; James and Sirius did effortlessly well at lessons and it wastheir sports prowess and mischievous charm which compensated for that social crime.

Aragon 2005.09.25 - 10:34PM 1: Breaking Point Signed
While I think you described Severus' bitterness over his years of endured bullying and the staff’s bias for the "golden Gryffindors" as acute and powerful as always I simply can't see him as desperate for Potter sen. approval to that extent. I don't think he felt the need or wish to be one of Potter's friends - or even worse as you imply hanger-on and follower like Pettigrew and Lupin! Imo Severus would rather prefer solitude over playing sycophant. And he doesn’t seem the type desperate for company and friendship as he’s quite introverted and generally distrustful of people. There's imo a good chance that he envied the silver-spoon duo Potter and Black their families wealth and perhaps pureblood heritage. And I think it's equally likely that Potter and Black were appalled and furious that such a grimy, little tyke had the nerve to NOT be impressed, find them wonderful and be cleverer than themselves - and even Sirius' and Lupin's biased accounts make grudgingly clear that Snape was more knowledgeable than themselves in some magical fields! And what could be more offensive to spoiled, pampered egocentrics like Black and Potter then someone who doesn't give a damn about them, is quite unimpressed by their antics and fails to show them the adoration they feel is only their DUE? I see this failure to pay homage to them as one of their main reasons for their 4 on 1-campaigns on Snape (and we know that contrary to SB's "and he followed us always around, the slime ball, so it's his own fault!" that after the OWLs at least Snape was not remotely interested in or even aware of their existence and that indifference provoked the assault). I felt this before but HBP makes it now canon that Snape was a highly talented, unusually gifted wizard far above his age group in more than "just" potions (compare "brightest witch of her age" Hermione who has the ability to take in what she reads, remember and spit it back out to use when needed but lacks creativity and the ability to invent. Who isn't able to do something like throwing over well-established theory with own better solutions like the Half-Blood Prince at the same age or inventing new spells: I doubt she ever even thought about it. For all her enthusiasm for schoolwork - when have we ever seen her diverting from book-knowledge?). Lupin's worshipful sermons about the unequalled virtues of Sirius and James are imo more indicative of gratitude and his own status as unquestioning, devoted follower than solid facts.... So I really can’t see Snape envious of James’ grades or intellect – why should he, being brilliant himself? He would probably be more contemptible of their hypocrisy in viewing themselves as courageous, noble and good while superior in numbers picking on those less fortunate and well connected. And show that contempt openly which would make him even more of a target. So, while well written again I personally can't see this as a realistic Snape view on the MWPP-issue.

Author's Response: This fic was written before HBP and therefore did not take the Potions book evidence into account. Nevertheless, I believe my interpretation is still canon-compatible. Academic (ie school/classroom) intelligence and true genius do not always coexist and the most gifted person is not necessarily the one who performs best in classroom situations. My personal experience of this is that my younger brother, now a famous physicist (to other physicists, anyhow), was seen by some teachers as below average. We always knew that he was by far the brightest of our Mensa-level family but he didn't always shine in the classroom. Sirius's comment about Snape following them around is not disproved by one incident. The Shrieking Shack incident suggests that there is at least some truth in it. (That was what Sirius used to lure him into danger.) In the pensieve scene, Snape is described as round-shouldered or hunched and with stringy hair - classic signs of depression, neglect or intimidation. They seem to indicate a lack of self-confidence and self-esteem rather than an excess of it. He may know himself to be far more talented than James but almost no one else does and therefore he may be prone to fits of doubt about it. (Creative people are particularly likely to doubt themselves.) James's inferior ability outshines his in class, due to factors such as charm, popularity, bias or whatever, and Severus is so undervalued that the Marauders can torment him in front of a crowd with impunity. Their cavalier attitude and his swift reach for his wand suggest that the pensieve scene is only one of many horrible episodes in his school-life. This is consistent with my characterisation. His contempt for their hypocrisy does not prevent him being envious of their success. The evidence for James's and Sirius's "brilliance" comes from Professor McGonagall, who describes them as "exceptionally brilliant" (PoA, ch 10), a sobriquet which seems incompatible with her having recognised Snape as even more gifted. There is no evidence that any teacher ever recognised his giftedness.

whitehound 2005.09.25 - 10:05PM 1: Breaking Point Signed
He was clearly in the Slug Club though (how else would Sluggy have got him to attend that party?) and it wasn't for his connections, since he was dirt-poor and half Muggle - so at least one teacher recognized his abilities.

I just don't *believe* in James as particularly bright - even if JK said he was. Psychologically, he just doesn't seem the type. It's people who feel inadequate in some way who bully others.

Author's Response: Yes, it's clear Slughorn recognised his abilities but perhaps no one else did. There are other reasons for bullying than feelings of inadequacy, for instance home environment/education and the simple dislike of nonconformity that is particularly strong in teens and children. I think the problem here was dehumanisation; James has been taught to view the Dark Arts with abhorrence and therefore sees anyone who's drawn to them as somewhat less than human, deserving of punishment. Another possibility is that what may have begun as a prank war may have deteriorated into blind loathing, especially if Severus reacted with killing force. In Muggle terms, that would equate to someone drawing a knife in a fistfight, an act considered so despicable the opponent feels entitled to bash the knife-wielder much worse than otherwise.


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